"Ice and Water Shield" as window flashing?

[HerHusband]

I am starting to shingle the roof of our new house and have a bit of the
rubber "Ice and Water Shield" left over from doing the valleys and whatnot.

I'm curious if this material could be used as window flashing under vinyl
windows?

It certainly seems tougher than the traditional tar paper, and it's
flexibility would be great for working around the edges of the rough window
openings. It has a slightly "gritty" surface, but I can't see that being
much of a problem?

Comments?

Anthony

[Bob Marencin]

I agree you should use it.

I am building a deck for my own home and I am using it as part of the
flashing for the ledger board.

I pulled up the tyvek and placed a 2' wide strip of the membrain on the wall
extending a couple inches down on the foundation. Then I pulled down the
tyvek stuck on the ledger board then stuck an aluminum z molding over the
top of the ledger board then used the scrap 1' wide roll of membrain
material over the z molding.

heh if it leaks it will have to be from a tornado

:o)


bob marencin
www.yourepair.com

The stuff makes really nice splines just for that purpose. Its great
under sills on exterior doors, etc. Use it for sure.
Mark

Post by HerHusband
I am starting to shingle the roof of our new house and have a bit of the
rubber "Ice and Water Shield" left over from doing the valleys and whatnot.
I'm curious if this material could be used as window flashing under vinyl
windows?
It certainly seems tougher than the traditional tar paper, and it's
flexibility would be great for working around the edges of the rough window
openings. It has a slightly "gritty" surface, but I can't see that being
much of a problem?
Comments?
Anthony

[lewisconva]

Subject: "Ice and Water Shield" as window flashing?
Date: 8/6/03 9:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time
I am starting to shingle the roof of our new house and have a bit of the
rubber "Ice and Water Shield" left over from doing the valleys and whatnot.
I'm curious if this material could be used as window flashing under vinyl
windows?
It certainly seems tougher than the traditional tar paper, and it's
flexibility would be great for working around the edges of the rough window
openings. It has a slightly "gritty" surface, but I can't see that being
much of a problem?
Comments?
Anthony

Anthony
I am a general building contractor,
This underlayment is a water proofing underlayment and it permanently adheres
to the roofing deck, in areas of heat it will permanently adhere to shingles,
making it impossible to remove the underlayment. Using these materials as a
window flashing is a NO-NO, it will adhere to the window, and you will never
get it out to repair the frame on even to replace it. We are now installing
metal flashing in window and door openings.
Terry
Lewis Contracting

[HerHusband]

Using these materials as a window flashing is a NO-NO, it will adhere
to the window, and you will never get it out to repair the frame on
even to replace it.

The ice and water shield I have is only sticky on one side (the side you
remove the release paper from). The other side has a slight grit and isn't
sticky at all.

If I were to use it as window flashing, I would put the sticky side against
the building. The gritty (non-sticky) side would go against the window.

Even if it sticks to the window a little in the heat, I wouldn't think it
would be any worse than a couple of beads of caulking under the vinyl
nailing flange?

So again, I wonder if the ice and water shield would make good window
flashing?

Anthony

[Matthew S. Whiting]

Post by HerHusband

Using these materials as a window flashing is a NO-NO, it will adhere
to the window, and you will never get it out to repair the frame on
even to replace it.

The ice and water shield I have is only sticky on one side (the side you
remove the release paper from). The other side has a slight grit and isn't
sticky at all.
If I were to use it as window flashing, I would put the sticky side against
the building. The gritty (non-sticky) side would go against the window.
Even if it sticks to the window a little in the heat, I wouldn't think it
would be any worse than a couple of beads of caulking under the vinyl
nailing flange?
So again, I wonder if the ice and water shield would make good window
flashing?
Anthony

It will probably work, but I'd use a purpose made material such as the
DuPont product whose link was posted here earlier. This isn't the place
on a house that I'd do my own R&D. The consequences of failure are too
hard to detect and too costly to repair once detected.


Matt

[lewisconva]

Ice & Water Shield (or approved equal) is fine for the flashing and a
definite
step up from felt paper as it is self-sealing around fasteners.

HEY R,
These underlayments have a heat activated glue that will stick to anything,
including PVC plastics or better known as vinyl. Read the manufactures
statement before advising someone of a fatal mistake. Its guys like you, who
think you know it all, that keeps me in business.
Terry
Lewis Contracting

[Rico dJour]

Post by lewisconva

Ice & Water Shield (or approved equal) is fine for the flashing and a
definite
step up from felt paper as it is self-sealing around fasteners.

HEY R,
These underlayments have a heat activated glue that will stick to anything,
including PVC plastics or better known as vinyl. Read the manufactures
statement before advising someone of a fatal mistake. Its guys like you, who
think you know it all, that keeps me in business.

Interesting viewpoint, Lewis, but you just happen to be wrong on all your
essential facts. I feel like Inspector Morse saying that. Just because I
disagree with you doesn't mean I know it all. It means that I think you are
wrong in this instance.

Let's recap:

Anthony has some scrap membrane with granules, which means it's probably not
Ice & Water Shield because that doesn't have granules, Basik does, as do other
manufacturers' products. Anthony proposed putting the flashing under the vinyl
window, which would put the polyethylene (if I&WS), or granular surface, in
contact with the window. There's no problem there.

I also recommended the Tyvek product as being the best choice for flashing
windows. Grace makes Vycor, a similar product. But if Anthony has some extra
membrane lying about, it's not worth going out to buy some.

I have no idea what you mean by a heat-activated glue. All of these membranes
use a release liner and they are pressure sensitive adhesives (PSA). Maybe you
got the idea from the fact that the adhesive is not as grabby in colder
weather. That doesn't mean it is heat-activated.

If you think about what you just wrote, you are saying that the membrane will
glue to the underside of the roof shingles. I guess you've never replaced
shingles that were on top of a membrane. They don't stick. If they did it
would make repairing the roof impossible.

Thanks for the advice about reading the manufacturer's "statement". Maybe it
would also help you refresh yourself on some of the details you're a little
shaky on. http://www.na.graceconstruction.com If you read the spec sheets for
_any_ of the membrane flashing products, you'll see that they all say not
compatible with "flexible PVC". Even the products that are designed to seal
the vinyl window flange to the house wrap. Vycor specifically mentions the
window nailing flange and shows pictures of how to apply it for various
severities of exposure. I think you are equating flexible vinyl with any
vinyl, and that is not the case.

While we're on the topic of window flashing, why don't you explain your method
for metal flashing around the windows?

R

[lewisconva]

Post by Rico dJour
Interesting viewpoint, Lewis, but you just happen to be wrong on all your
essential facts. I feel like Inspector Morse saying that. Just because I
disagree with you doesn't mean I know it all. It means that I think you are
wrong in this instance.
Anthony has some scrap membrane with granules, which means it's probably not
Ice & Water Shield because that doesn't have granules, Basik does, as do other
manufacturers' products. Anthony proposed putting the flashing under the vinyl
window, which would put the polyethylene (if I&WS), or granular surface, in
contact with the window. There's no problem there.
I also recommended the Tyvek product as being the best choice for flashing
windows. Grace makes Vycor, a similar product. But if Anthony has some extra
membrane lying about, it's not worth going out to buy some.
I have no idea what you mean by a heat-activated glue. All of these membranes
use a release liner and they are pressure sensitive adhesives (PSA). Maybe you
got the idea from the fact that the adhesive is not as grabby in colder
weather. That doesn't mean it is heat-activated.
If you think about what you just wrote, you are saying that the membrane will
glue to the underside of the roof shingles. I guess you've never replaced
shingles that were on top of a membrane. They don't stick. If they did it
would make repairing the roof impossible.
Thanks for the advice about reading the manufacturer's "statement". Maybe it
would also help you refresh yourself on some of the details you're a little
shaky on. http://www.na.graceconstruction.com If you read the spec sheets for
_any_ of the membrane flashing products, you'll see that they all say not
compatible with "flexible PVC". Even the products that are designed to seal
the vinyl window flange to the house wrap. Vycor specifically mentions the
window nailing flange and shows pictures of how to apply it for various
severities of exposure. I think you are equating flexible vinyl with any
vinyl, and that is not the case.
While we're on the topic of window flashing, why don't you explain your method
for metal flashing around the windows?
R
Hey R,

I am a licensed general building contractor, We have installed this water
proofing underlayments for years, and yes it will adhere to the shingles on top
of it. And the removal of it is impossible as it permanently adheres to the
roofing deck as stated by all of these manufactures. Cutting the deck is about
the only answer, Water will seep between the shingles and the underlayment
further enhancing the adhesion. The surface has no bearing on it at all, as the
glue moves upward under these conditions. Placing felt over the underlayment
and under the shingles will help in re-roofing. So as one can see, using
roofing water proofing underlayments as flashing on windows can be a hazard to
the window. Now DuPont has an approved window flashing designed for this
application and does work well, however we are now installing metal flashing in
door and window rough openings as required by most manufactures and some
BUILDING CODES.
Now my friend IF you feel I have ill advised someone on roofing water proofing
underlayments Then please, I am also an m.s.a. for certainteed manufacturing
feel free to e-mail them.
Terry
Lewis Contracting

[Rico dJour]

Post by Rico dJour

Post by Rico dJour
Interesting viewpoint, Lewis, but you just happen to be wrong on all your
essential facts. I feel like Inspector Morse saying that. Just because I
disagree with you doesn't mean I know it all. It means that I think you are
wrong in this instance.
Anthony has some scrap membrane with granules, which means it's probably not
Ice & Water Shield because that doesn't have granules, Basik does, as do other
manufacturers' products. Anthony proposed putting the flashing under the vinyl
window, which would put the polyethylene (if I&WS), or granular surface, in
contact with the window. There's no problem there.
I also recommended the Tyvek product as being the best choice for flashing
windows. Grace makes Vycor, a similar product. But if Anthony has some extra
membrane lying about, it's not worth going out to buy some.
I have no idea what you mean by a heat-activated glue. All of these membranes
use a release liner and they are pressure sensitive adhesives (PSA). Maybe you
got the idea from the fact that the adhesive is not as grabby in colder
weather. That doesn't mean it is heat-activated.
If you think about what you just wrote, you are saying that the membrane

will

Post by Rico dJour
glue to the underside of the roof shingles. I guess you've never replaced
shingles that were on top of a membrane. They don't stick. If they did it
would make repairing the roof impossible.
Thanks for the advice about reading the manufacturer's "statement". Maybe

it

Post by Rico dJour
would also help you refresh yourself on some of the details you're a little
shaky on. http://www.na.graceconstruction.com If you read the spec sheets for
_any_ of the membrane flashing products, you'll see that they all say not
compatible with "flexible PVC". Even the products that are designed to seal
the vinyl window flange to the house wrap. Vycor specifically mentions the
window nailing flange and shows pictures of how to apply it for various
severities of exposure. I think you are equating flexible vinyl with any
vinyl, and that is not the case.
While we're on the topic of window flashing, why don't you explain your method
for metal flashing around the windows?
R

Hey R,
I am a licensed general building contractor, We have installed this water
proofing underlayments for years, and yes it will adhere to the shingles on top
of it. And the removal of it is impossible as it permanently adheres to the
roofing deck as stated by all of these manufactures. Cutting the deck is about
the only answer, Water will seep between the shingles and the underlayment
further enhancing the adhesion. The surface has no bearing on it at all, as the
glue moves upward under these conditions. Placing felt over the underlayment
and under the shingles will help in re-roofing. So as one can see, using
roofing water proofing underlayments as flashing on windows can be a hazard to
the window. Now DuPont has an approved window flashing designed for this
application and does work well, however we are now installing metal flashing in
door and window rough openings as required by most manufactures and some
BUILDING CODES.
Now my friend IF you feel I have ill advised someone on roofing waterproofing
underlayments Then please, I am also an m.s.a. for certainteed manufacturing
feel free to e-mail them.

What are you, the Pope? Sorry, but your being licensed doesn't mean that
you're infallible. Neither does the thingie with Certainteed They doen't
manufacture any products such as those under discussion - so that has no
bearing. No one can certify you for products they don't make.

Tyvek is a DuPont product and if you had bothered reading what I wrote in
either of my previous replies, instead of getting upset that someone disagrees
with you, you'd know that I specifically mentioned and recommended the Tyvek
flashing tapes.

There are some really stupid building codes in some of the smaller villages
around here, but I don't know of a major code that requires metal flashings at
window openings. Please cite your reference. Also, please cite _any_
manufacturer that requires metal flashings. As soon as a window manufacturer
requires metal flashings around all of its windows, they should file for
bankruptcy. It's a needless extra cost and every contractor would switch to a
different brand of window.

I still want to hear how you use metal flashings around windows. Feel free to
post a detail or two.

As far as your misconceptions about how the self-adhesive membranes work...I
don't know where to start. You mention the adhesive on the bottom of the sheet
and somehow then conclude that it also sticks as tenaciously to the shingles.
It doesn't. The first time a contractor ran across that situation while trying
to repair a few shingles, it would be the _last_ time he'd ever use it. More
to the point, how does the glue, which is applied to the underside of the
membrane in the factory, migrate up through a self-sealing rubber membrane,
through the polyethylene and through a layer of granules? What can stop this
glue?!?!

R

[lewisconva]

Post by Rico dJour
What are you, the Pope? Sorry, but your being licensed doesn't mean that
you're infallible. Neither does the thingie with Certainteed They doen't
manufacture any products such as those under discussion - so that has no
bearing. No one can certify you for products they don't make.
Tyvek is a DuPont product and if you had bothered reading what I wrote in
either of my previous replies, instead of getting upset that someone disagrees
with you, you'd know that I specifically mentioned and recommended the Tyvek
flashing tapes.
There are some really stupid building codes in some of the smaller villages
around here, but I don't know of a major code that requires metal flashings at
window openings. Please cite your reference. Also, please cite _any_
manufacturer that requires metal flashings. As soon as a window manufacturer
requires metal flashings around all of its windows, they should file for
bankruptcy. It's a needless extra cost and every contractor would switch to a
different brand of window.
I still want to hear how you use metal flashings around windows. Feel free to
post a detail or two.
As far as your misconceptions about how the self-adhesive membranes work...I
don't know where to start. You mention the adhesive on the bottom of the sheet
and somehow then conclude that it also sticks as tenaciously to the shingles.
It doesn't. The first time a contractor ran across that situation while trying
to repair a few shingles, it would be the _last_ time he'd ever use it. More
to the point, how does the glue, which is applied to the underside of the
membrane in the factory, migrate up through a self-sealing rubber membrane,
through the polyethylene and through a layer of granules? What can stop this
glue?!?!
R
MY friend, I can tell from your posting that you have never built anything

that would require a building permit. I have watched your posting for sometime
and have concluded that you are stuck in a trolls position on this group, it
the last year alone, you have given out enough misinformation to keep 100
contractors in business for the next 5 years, So please keep right on trolling.
For the rest of this group, contact your local professional, and tell him what
I have posted.
Terry
Lewis Contracting

[Matthew S. Whiting]

Post by lewisconva

Post by Rico dJour
What are you, the Pope? Sorry, but your being licensed doesn't mean that
you're infallible. Neither does the thingie with Certainteed They doen't
manufacture any products such as those under discussion - so that has no
bearing. No one can certify you for products they don't make.
Tyvek is a DuPont product and if you had bothered reading what I wrote in
either of my previous replies, instead of getting upset that someone disagrees
with you, you'd know that I specifically mentioned and recommended the Tyvek
flashing tapes.
There are some really stupid building codes in some of the smaller villages
around here, but I don't know of a major code that requires metal flashings at
window openings. Please cite your reference. Also, please cite _any_
manufacturer that requires metal flashings. As soon as a window manufacturer
requires metal flashings around all of its windows, they should file for
bankruptcy. It's a needless extra cost and every contractor would switch to a
different brand of window.
I still want to hear how you use metal flashings around windows. Feel free to
post a detail or two.
As far as your misconceptions about how the self-adhesive membranes work...I
don't know where to start. You mention the adhesive on the bottom of the sheet
and somehow then conclude that it also sticks as tenaciously to the shingles.
It doesn't. The first time a contractor ran across that situation while trying
to repair a few shingles, it would be the _last_ time he'd ever use it. More
to the point, how does the glue, which is applied to the underside of the
membrane in the factory, migrate up through a self-sealing rubber membrane,
through the polyethylene and through a layer of granules? What can stop this
glue?!?!
R
MY friend, I can tell from your posting that you have never built anything

that would require a building permit. I have watched your posting for sometime
and have concluded that you are stuck in a trolls position on this group, it
the last year alone, you have given out enough misinformation to keep 100
contractors in business for the next 5 years, So please keep right on trolling.
For the rest of this group, contact your local professional, and tell him what
I have posted.

Sorry, Terry, but Rico isn't the only one who thinks you are off-base
here. However, I'm open to reading a reliable reference or two that
substantiates what you say. I've never seen the adhesive on ice and
water shield migrate upwards through the membrane to adhere to the
shingles. If you can show a couple or three references to support this,
then I'll believe your advice.


Matt

[Matthew S. Whiting]

Post by lewisconva

Post by Rico dJour
Interesting viewpoint, Lewis, but you just happen to be wrong on all your
essential facts. I feel like Inspector Morse saying that. Just because I
disagree with you doesn't mean I know it all. It means that I think you are
wrong in this instance.
Anthony has some scrap membrane with granules, which means it's probably not
Ice & Water Shield because that doesn't have granules, Basik does, as do other
manufacturers' products. Anthony proposed putting the flashing under the vinyl
window, which would put the polyethylene (if I&WS), or granular surface, in
contact with the window. There's no problem there.
I also recommended the Tyvek product as being the best choice for flashing
windows. Grace makes Vycor, a similar product. But if Anthony has some extra
membrane lying about, it's not worth going out to buy some.
I have no idea what you mean by a heat-activated glue. All of these membranes
use a release liner and they are pressure sensitive adhesives (PSA). Maybe you
got the idea from the fact that the adhesive is not as grabby in colder
weather. That doesn't mean it is heat-activated.
If you think about what you just wrote, you are saying that the membrane will
glue to the underside of the roof shingles. I guess you've never replaced
shingles that were on top of a membrane. They don't stick. If they did it
would make repairing the roof impossible.
Thanks for the advice about reading the manufacturer's "statement". Maybe it
would also help you refresh yourself on some of the details you're a little
shaky on. http://www.na.graceconstruction.com If you read the spec sheets for
_any_ of the membrane flashing products, you'll see that they all say not
compatible with "flexible PVC". Even the products that are designed to seal
the vinyl window flange to the house wrap. Vycor specifically mentions the
window nailing flange and shows pictures of how to apply it for various
severities of exposure. I think you are equating flexible vinyl with any
vinyl, and that is not the case.
While we're on the topic of window flashing, why don't you explain your method
for metal flashing around the windows?
R
Hey R,

I am a licensed general building contractor, We have installed this water
proofing underlayments for years, and yes it will adhere to the shingles on top
of it. And the removal of it is impossible as it permanently adheres to the
roofing deck as stated by all of these manufactures. Cutting the deck is about
the only answer, Water will seep between the shingles and the underlayment
further enhancing the adhesion. The surface has no bearing on it at all, as the
glue moves upward under these conditions. Placing felt over the underlayment
and under the shingles will help in re-roofing. So as one can see, using
roofing water proofing underlayments as flashing on windows can be a hazard to
the window. Now DuPont has an approved window flashing designed for this
application and does work well, however we are now installing metal flashing in
door and window rough openings as required by most manufactures and some
BUILDING CODES.

Please name a couple of manufacturers (I assume you mean window
manufacturers??) that require metal flashing and a building code or two.
I'm not away of any. My house has Andersen windows and they had no
such requirement.


Matt

[Mark & Shauna]

"fatal"? We are talking about a potential window repair here? Thats a
pretty fatalistic way to look at the installation of a new window.
Additionally if you are talking repair/replace a window you have to
un-nail, un caulk (cut), etc multiple details before you even get to the
flange. Whats the big deal about running a blade around some watershield
in the process?

This however is all nonsense anyway as the part you are missing is that
the watershield is not wrapped onto the flange of the window anyway. It
acts as a spline under the flange. The granules on the water shield (as
well as it not having adhesive) on the weather side means that the
window would not be "glued in" by the watershield in any way.

I have used it countless times and it works wonderfully. I agree with
Rico in that the only thing better is a product that DOES overlap the
nailing flange making a dead tight installation.

Mark

Post by lewisconva

Ice & Water Shield (or approved equal) is fine for the flashing and a
definite
step up from felt paper as it is self-sealing around fasteners.

HEY R,
These underlayments have a heat activated glue that will stick to anything,
including PVC plastics or better known as vinyl. Read the manufactures
statement before advising someone of a fatal mistake. Its guys like you, who
think you know it all, that keeps me in business.
Terry
Lewis Contracting

[Rico dJour]

Bob,
Journal of Light Construction article on attaching decks notes
"…observed that aluminum flashing in contact with CCA treated lumber
had corroded within five years of construction."
TB

Bob? CCA treated lumber?? I don't see either of these mentioned in the
above thread. Are you in the twilight zone TB?
Matt

I was wondering about that myself. Maybe he's channeling Deb...?

R