200 amp distribution box on 100 amp power line (SF Bay area, California)?

[z]

My contractor wanted and still wants to put a 200 amp
power distribution box on my home which is being
remodeled with new rooms and air conditioning.

We called PG&E and got a surprise: they want us
to trench to the local underground box where the home
power line connects to to the neighborhood power line,
and put in a 3" pipe where there is now a 1 1/2" pipe.
Then they want to draw a new line through the pipe,
a line which they say can handle 200 amps.

The old line is (apparently) aluminum.

A guy in the same subdivision about 200 yards
away put on a second story in about 2001. He
upgraded from a 100 amp DB to a 200 amp DB
but did not have to change his power line. I looked
at it and it seemed the original power line for
the subdivision, same as mine.

Trenching would involve a USA, 40 feet @ 2-4' deep,
breaking and replacing a sidewalk concrete segment,
and so on. For PG&E to do it, it would cost
~$200 / ft. The contractor proposes to do it with
a backhoe he would get for cheaper.

All this is not in the contract. In the contract,
upgrading the power line (I think) is marked
"N/A" so there may be some issue (???) with
who picks up the tab for this problem.
I'm just about out of money for taking up the contractor's
earlier suggestion to upgrade our garage roof to get
rid of a cricket by re-aligning the roof line. That
soaked up most of our discretionary budget money.
I'm somewhat concerned that I seem to be forced
to hold the bag for a mistake that someone else,
somewhere, somehow, should have seen coming.

There seems to be some issue with the consistency
with which PG&E is holding us responsible for
line upgrades (or not). There is some speculation
that there might be a new code (although my recollection
is that I was assured by PG&E that this was not the case).

The PG&E guy I spoke with did not mention the case
of my neighbor (who I happened to be aware of).
He just said no one else in my area was upgrading
their lines (at least, not yet), and that everyone's line
was the same (ie 100 amps rated), even 2 story folks
(I am one story). Evidently no one in the subdivision
had air conditioning initially.

Thanks for any advice or pointers.

[Nehmo Sergheyev]

- z -

Post by z
breaking and replacing a sidewalk concrete segment,
and so on. For PG&E to do it, it would cost
~$200 / ft.

- Nehmo -
$200 per foot? Just for a 3" pipe? And what depth is it, 2' or 4'? And
you don't need a back hoe. And there are ways to go under the sidewalk
without going through it. (You presented other issues too, but I can't
deal with everything.)

[Phil Scott]

Post by Nehmo Sergheyev
- z -

Post by z
breaking and replacing a sidewalk concrete segment,
and so on. For PG&E to do it, it would cost
~$200 / ft.

- Nehmo -
$200 per foot? Just for a 3" pipe?

Sure... thats a good number considering connections at both ends, and
pavement and concrete walk repair.


And what depth is it, 2' or 4'?

He probably meant the code minimum depth for buried service feeders 30".

Post by Nehmo Sergheyev
And
you don't need a back hoe. And there are ways to go under the sidewalk
without going through it. (You presented other issues too, but I can't
deal with everything.)

On the PG and E issue, they are undoubtedly correct that the 100 amp feeder
is not sufficient for the 200 amp service...but the owner could consider 150
amp service and then have the electrical contractor prove enough diversity
in the loads to allow the 100 amp original service to remain. It was these
diversity considerations that allowed the other home owners to stay with the
100 amp underground feeders.

To run the full 200 amps on a 200 amp pannel, every single light would have
to be on while one was washing dishes, ironing, running the AC, oven and tee
vee...that virtually never happens... for the home owner, thats called
'diversity' and can be figured when sizing equipement... but thare are
limits on how small a feeder is allowed on a 200 amp service, apparently PG
and E had been loose on that in the past... talk to another PG and E
rep...he will have a different view or OK a different solution, or you can
go with the next size smaller pannel, 200 amp is nice, but generally not
necessary.


Phil Scott

Post by Nehmo Sergheyev
--
*********************
* Nehmo Sergheyev *
*********************

[Jark]

WOW! $200/foot! My estimate, ten years ago, was $9 a foot for virtually
the same parameters -- trenching, materials, and labor! I didn't have a
sidewalk to contend with, but that certainly wouldn't have been that much of
a difference over the entire length "per foot" calculation!
A number of years ago I had the local utilities engineer estimate the cost
of underground feeder. Of course, I already had the "per foot:" and
"material cost" figures from the utilities company; and when he proceeded to
use his little engineer's calculator to give me an estimate, his
calculations went 75% over what I had already calculated. When I called his
attention to the basic rates and units involved in the calculations, he
reconsidered and recalculated and arrived at a figure very close to my own.
Don't trust these guys!
When I constructed and configured everything (I did it myself, rather than
trust self-proclaimed "engineers") and dug the trench and laid the lines and
supplied the feeder box and disconnect, the utility company came out,
blessed what I had done, and proceeded to hook up my 200 amp system to the
pole transformer using wires barely capable of 100 amps!
And the feeder they supply is aluminum? Then there are different standards
and calculations that have to be applied!
As a rule of thumb, look at the houses and toys these engineers and CEO's
own, and consider the profit rate that they work under. Now, consider
yours.
How much do you trust them?

Post by Nehmo Sergheyev
- z -

Post by z
breaking and replacing a sidewalk concrete segment,
and so on. For PG&E to do it, it would cost
~$200 / ft.

- Nehmo -
$200 per foot? Just for a 3" pipe? And what depth is it, 2' or 4'? And
you don't need a back hoe. And there are ways to go under the sidewalk
without going through it. (You presented other issues too, but I can't
deal with everything.)
--
*********************
* Nehmo Sergheyev *
*********************

[Phil Scott]

Post by Jark
WOW! $200/foot! My estimate, ten years ago, was $9 a foot for virtually
the same parameters -- trenching, materials, and labor! I didn't have a
sidewalk to contend with, but that certainly wouldn't have been that much of
a difference over the entire length "per foot" calculation!
A number of years ago I had the local utilities engineer estimate the cost
of underground feeder. Of course, I already had the "per foot:" and
"material cost" figures from the utilities company; and when he proceeded to
use his little engineer's calculator to give me an estimate, his
calculations went 75% over what I had already calculated. When I called his
attention to the basic rates and units involved in the calculations, he
reconsidered and recalculated and arrived at a figure very close to my own.
Don't trust these guys!
When I constructed and configured everything (I did it myself, rather than
trust self-proclaimed "engineers") and dug the trench and laid the lines and
supplied the feeder box and disconnect, the utility company came out,
blessed what I had done, and proceeded to hook up my 200 amp system to the
pole transformer using wires barely capable of 100 amps!
And the feeder they supply is aluminum? Then there are different standards
and calculations that have to be applied!
As a rule of thumb, look at the houses and toys these engineers and CEO's
own, and consider the profit rate that they work under. Now, consider
yours.
How much do you trust them?

all of what you said is reasonably well founded. Thats how it is
largely. Why its that way varies depending on the situation. Corruption
at the top. At the bottom, with the contractors it can be corruption and
often is... but just as often it is an absolultely KILLER tax rate and costs
of insurance, and red tape costs ... and the fact of not being able to bill
a customer for all the hours your men spend on a job job site.... a man
might be on your job site only 2 hours but will spend an hour travel each
way, 2 hours gathering up the parts and tools he needs to do the job, an
hour discussing the job with you or his boss ..so it burns up an entire
day..maybe 7 hours... that last hour is going to be wasted... not enough
time in the day to use it constructively in many cases....so they will flat
rate that 2 hour job at 8 man hours...thats how numbers like $200 a foot for
that trench came up.... Its reasonable for this area if you have to stage
for the job as an only job...but as one other poster here said who has
operated in this area, $4,000 max or $100 a foot or even less, maybe $50/ft
if he was in the area working already.. Thats very very reaonable for this
area...and the contractors are not gettng rich as a rule...some do of
course, most struggle.

Even 50 dollars a foot is 400% over your figure you see.

and yes indeedie.... its *always vastly cheaper to do it yourself, and in
many but not all cases you will get a better job.

On the 100 amp wire feeding your 200 amp service... you are somewhat correct
there also, its just that thier wire is is i the open air, so can be uprated
because of that, it can radiate heat that way... and figuring NEC allowed
(recommended) diversity in to your 200 amp service... you will seldom if
ever see over 150 amp draw, probably not over 100 amps... thier overhead
wire is good for maybe 125 or 140 amps with no significant voltage drop...if
you surge at 150 or so,the voltage drop will be still most likely be within
NEC specified tolerances.

(IF however you drew 150 amps and it was ALL running say, air conditioners,
those are motor loads, they generate a 'back emf', current that impedes
incoming flow (180 degrees out of phase with incomming)...and you could
indeed get voltage drops significant enough to damage your compressor
motors.... also if you have a neighbor with such use on the same set of
transformers, his impedance would affect your service adversely... and that
is often an issue in older industrialized areas. There is also the 'brown
out' issue, low voltage in the area wide grid... that alone, can take the
voltage below NEC standards, often low enough to burn out air conditioner
and refrig motors...thats common in the summer in many many areas... voltage
drops well over 10%... now if you happen to be running 150 amps worth of
loads that day, and your 100 amp rated feeders are taking another 2 or 3
volts... for a 13% drop or worse... your motors and compressors, on a hot
day, when fully loaded are at *great risk.

If you wanted to reduce the risk you would leave the AC on in the morning
so it never has to do a catch up load in the aftern noon... if you came
home to a 100 degree house and turned your AC on in these brown out
conditions, not only would it go off on its internal overloads but it could
burn out.

Best is to turn off your motor driven appliances in brown out conditions
(late in the day on real hot days between 3 and 5 or 6 pm)... If you ran
and electric range on a day like that, and electric clothes drier and the
AC... with your 100 amp rated feeders, you would be taking big risks.


Phil Scott

Post by Jark

Post by Nehmo Sergheyev
- z -

Post by z
breaking and replacing a sidewalk concrete segment,
and so on. For PG&E to do it, it would cost
~$200 / ft.

- Nehmo -
$200 per foot? Just for a 3" pipe? And what depth is it, 2' or 4'? And
you don't need a back hoe. And there are ways to go under the sidewalk
without going through it. (You presented other issues too, but I can't
deal with everything.)
--
*********************
* Nehmo Sergheyev *
*********************

[Paul Fritz]

Post by z
My contractor wanted and still wants to put a 200 amp
power distribution box on my home which is being
remodeled with new rooms and air conditioning.
We called PG&E and got a surprise: they want us
to trench to the local underground box where the home
power line connects to to the neighborhood power line,
and put in a 3" pipe where there is now a 1 1/2" pipe.
Then they want to draw a new line through the pipe,
a line which they say can handle 200 amps.

I put in a 200a panel with a 100amp line........according to the local
power company, the meter is the limiting factor so there was no problem.

Post by z
The old line is (apparently) aluminum.

I;m not sure about underground, but aluminum service feeds are common.

Post by z
A guy in the same subdivision about 200 yards
away put on a second story in about 2001. He
upgraded from a 100 amp DB to a 200 amp DB
but did not have to change his power line. I looked
at it and it seemed the original power line for
the subdivision, same as mine.
breaking and replacing a sidewalk concrete segment,
and so on. For PG&E to do it, it would cost
~$200 / ft. The contractor proposes to do it with
a backhoe he would get for cheaper.

No doubt it would be cheaper, it typcially is.

Post by z
All this is not in the contract. In the contract,
upgrading the power line (I think) is marked
"N/A" so there may be some issue (???) with
who picks up the tab for this problem.

No issue there, it is not part of the contract.

Post by z
I'm just about out of money for taking up the contractor's
earlier suggestion to upgrade our garage roof to get
rid of a cricket by re-aligning the roof line. That
soaked up most of our discretionary budget money.
I'm somewhat concerned that I seem to be forced
to hold the bag for a mistake that someone else,
somewhere, somehow, should have seen coming.

You are not being forced to do anything. And there was no mistake, except
maybe yours.

Post by z
There seems to be some issue with the consistency
with which PG&E is holding us responsible for
line upgrades (or not). There is some speculation
that there might be a new code (although my recollection
is that I was assured by PG&E that this was not the case).
The PG&E guy I spoke with did not mention the case
of my neighbor (who I happened to be aware of).
He just said no one else in my area was upgrading
their lines (at least, not yet), and that everyone's line
was the same (ie 100 amps rated), even 2 story folks
(I am one story). Evidently no one in the subdivision
had air conditioning initially.
Thanks for any advice or pointers.

[Bill Cairns]

Post by z
My contractor wanted and still wants to put a 200 amp
power distribution box on my home which is being
remodeled with new rooms and air conditioning.
We called PG&E and got a surprise: they want us
to trench to the local underground box where the home
power line connects to to the neighborhood power line,
and put in a 3" pipe where there is now a 1 1/2" pipe.
Then they want to draw a new line through the pipe,
a line which they say can handle 200 amps.
The old line is (apparently) aluminum.
A guy in the same subdivision about 200 yards
away put on a second story in about 2001. He
upgraded from a 100 amp DB to a 200 amp DB
but did not have to change his power line. I looked
at it and it seemed the original power line for
the subdivision, same as mine.
breaking and replacing a sidewalk concrete segment,
and so on. For PG&E to do it, it would cost
~$200 / ft. The contractor proposes to do it with
a backhoe he would get for cheaper.
All this is not in the contract. In the contract,
upgrading the power line (I think) is marked
"N/A" so there may be some issue (???) with
who picks up the tab for this problem.
I'm just about out of money for taking up the contractor's
earlier suggestion to upgrade our garage roof to get
rid of a cricket by re-aligning the roof line. That
soaked up most of our discretionary budget money.
I'm somewhat concerned that I seem to be forced
to hold the bag for a mistake that someone else,
somewhere, somehow, should have seen coming.
There seems to be some issue with the consistency
with which PG&E is holding us responsible for
line upgrades (or not). There is some speculation
that there might be a new code (although my recollection
is that I was assured by PG&E that this was not the case).
The PG&E guy I spoke with did not mention the case
of my neighbor (who I happened to be aware of).
He just said no one else in my area was upgrading
their lines (at least, not yet), and that everyone's line
was the same (ie 100 amps rated), even 2 story folks
(I am one story). Evidently no one in the subdivision
had air conditioning initially.
Thanks for any advice or pointers.

As far as the issue of your remod -vs- the neighbors, I can only

say that electrical req's from utilities do change. One possibile
solution would be to get the local Elec. Inspector to the site and get
some opinions from him. You may be able to use the existing conduit
and pull some copper thru it which takes less room than 200a aluminum
feeds would. This depends on the NEC pipe fill formulas which I don't
have handy. If that is OK'd and you may need to supply the riser up
the nearest util. pole also but it beats having to trench out your
yard.

[Phil Scott]

Post by Bill Cairns

Post by z
My contractor wanted and still wants to put a 200 amp
power distribution box on my home which is being
remodeled with new rooms and air conditioning.
We called PG&E and got a surprise: they want us
to trench to the local underground box where the home
power line connects to to the neighborhood power line,
and put in a 3" pipe where there is now a 1 1/2" pipe.
Then they want to draw a new line through the pipe,
a line which they say can handle 200 amps.
The old line is (apparently) aluminum.
A guy in the same subdivision about 200 yards
away put on a second story in about 2001. He
upgraded from a 100 amp DB to a 200 amp DB
but did not have to change his power line. I looked
at it and it seemed the original power line for
the subdivision, same as mine.
breaking and replacing a sidewalk concrete segment,
and so on. For PG&E to do it, it would cost
~$200 / ft. The contractor proposes to do it with
a backhoe he would get for cheaper.
All this is not in the contract. In the contract,
upgrading the power line (I think) is marked
"N/A" so there may be some issue (???) with
who picks up the tab for this problem.
I'm just about out of money for taking up the contractor's
earlier suggestion to upgrade our garage roof to get
rid of a cricket by re-aligning the roof line. That
soaked up most of our discretionary budget money.
I'm somewhat concerned that I seem to be forced
to hold the bag for a mistake that someone else,
somewhere, somehow, should have seen coming.
There seems to be some issue with the consistency
with which PG&E is holding us responsible for
line upgrades (or not). There is some speculation
that there might be a new code (although my recollection
is that I was assured by PG&E that this was not the case).
The PG&E guy I spoke with did not mention the case
of my neighbor (who I happened to be aware of).
He just said no one else in my area was upgrading
their lines (at least, not yet), and that everyone's line
was the same (ie 100 amps rated), even 2 story folks
(I am one story). Evidently no one in the subdivision
had air conditioning initially.
Thanks for any advice or pointers.

As far as the issue of your remod -vs- the neighbors, I can only

say that electrical req's from utilities do change. One possibile
solution would be to get the local Elec. Inspector to the site and get
some opinions from him. You may be able to use the existing conduit
and pull some copper thru it which takes less room than 200a aluminum
feeds would. This depends on the NEC pipe fill formulas which I don't
have handy.

I am an electrical contractor... thats a good idea you have there. The
copper feeders of the same size as the aluminum are rated approx 50%
higher in current carrying capacity. So they will fit the same space and be
sufficient counting diversity to easily serve a 200 amp panel.

There are also heat and length of run issues with wiring, in the hot sun on
a long run feeders etc must be oversized as the heat increases resistance
etc..there are formlula's for that. In this case though the wire is cool,
underground..all that considered, along with diversity of actual use, and
the relatively short 40' run tend to support the existing 100 amp feeders
being passable also. The home owner probably never sees a full 100 amp
load at his meter, or if he does its only briefly... all this is taken into
account in the NEC... (500 pages of rules, too much to memorize but you can
look em up..).

On the NEC rules for being required to upsize wire for ambient heat and
length of run? Ive never seen it applied or enforced, and in many cases it
should be enforced...for example an air conditioner I saw served by a 200'
long wire run on a roof in the hot sun..the wire was sized for the load, but
not upsized for the 200' and the 140 degree F roof temps...so there was a
voltage drop at the AC unit compressor, it ran hot, and burned out about
once a year.

Normally the low voltage didnt show, only on ultra hot days...and...when the
city was having low voltage problems generally, hard to catch that live on a
service call...but when all 3 conditions happened at once, that compressor
was toast after a few iterations.

You dont have any of those problems with a short UG service...the only worry
would be a commercial application..where high loads could be sustained...
and then the light wire could cause low voltage and damage motors etc.

Phil Scott



Phil Scott

Post by Bill Cairns
If that is OK'd and you may need to supply the riser up
the nearest util. pole also but it beats having to trench out your
yard.

[David Meiland]

Post by z
that I seem to be forced
to hold the bag for a mistake that someone else,
somewhere, somehow, should have seen coming.

Whose mistake? When they built the house they installed what they
wanted to pay for, which is apparently not what you want now. You are
fortunate to have underground utilities, aesthetically speaking, and
apparently unfortunate that the conduit it undersized for what you
want inside it. If it's on your property you have to pay for it.

You may feel like holding the contractor responsible but to do so
you'd have to have absolutely clear plans and specs that say 'upgrade
incoming service feeders to 200A'. That's my opinion, others may not
agree. What's shown on the plans and what's the contract say?

$200 per foot is a stupid amount of money to pay for a conduit in a
trench. A guy with a small backhoe ($150/hour?) can dig 40' of 4'
trench in a couple of hours unless you're on solid rock. A guy
(electrician, $60/hr.) with 4 or 5 pieces of pipe, a few fittings, and
a can of glue can install the pipe in half a day. You can go under the
sidewalk or through it and either way it's not that much drama.
Patching one square of concrete would take a decent carpenter a few
hours to form and a few hours to pour and finish. With some
coordination you can get a trench like that open, inspected, and
closed in one day with the new pipe in it. I worked in the Bay Area
for 16 years and that would have been a $2-3000 change order,
something in that range. If your contractor can't get it done
economically then something's wrong.

Unfortunately, construction is full of change orders. Your situation
sounds extremely familiar.
---
David Meiland
Friday Harbor, WA
http://davidmeiland.com/

**Check the reply address before sending mail

[Phil Scott]

Post by David Meiland

Post by z
that I seem to be forced
to hold the bag for a mistake that someone else,
somewhere, somehow, should have seen coming.

Whose mistake? When they built the house they installed what they
wanted to pay for, which is apparently not what you want now. You are
fortunate to have underground utilities, aesthetically speaking, and
apparently unfortunate that the conduit it undersized for what you
want inside it. If it's on your property you have to pay for it.

There are some variable conditions on that, historically on any job the
contractor supplies the service mast and meter, and the utility company
makes the drop from its transformers (and fits whatever transformers are
required when necessary)

Under ground should be the same, most especially where the PG and E
transformers are not on the customers property. Maybe there are changes
since PG and E's bankrupsy... it is historically not the home owners right
or responsibility to hook up to the line transormers, and also a violation
of the NEC code for a contractor... its the utility companies property.
They are supposed to run power to your mast head...with UG there is no
masthead...so now they are trying to say you have run the conduit to their
tranformers? On public right of way, trenching public streets? I dont
think so.

.

Post by David Meiland
You may feel like holding the contractor responsible but to do so
you'd have to have absolutely clear plans and specs that say 'upgrade
incoming service feeders to 200A'. That's my opinion, others may not
agree. What's shown on the plans and what's the contract say?

You are correct imho, but lately contractors are being leaned on a lot...
some twit at the state may say that its assumed if you put in a 200A panel
you would fit the rest of the system to accomodate it... thats a trend. I
dont think it would hold up in court though.

One of the reasons one might go to a 200A panel with 100amp rated service
feeders is for diversity reasons and increase in amperage capacity due to
the cool, heat conductive underground location.

Post by David Meiland
$200 per foot is a stupid amount of money to pay for a conduit in a
trench. A guy with a small backhoe ($150/hour?) can dig 40' of 4'
trench in a couple of hours unless you're on solid rock. A guy
(electrician, $60/hr.) with 4 or 5 pieces of pipe, a few fittings, and
a can of glue can install the pipe in half a day. You can go under the
sidewalk or through it and either way it's not that much drama.
Patching one square of concrete would take a decent carpenter a few
hours to form and a few hours to pour and finish. With some
coordination you can get a trench like that open, inspected, and
closed in one day with the new pipe in it. I worked in the Bay Area
for 16 years and that would have been a $2-3000 change order,
something in that range.

I am contracting in the bay area now... that job would go for $4,000 dead
minimum if you could find anyone at that rate, and most contractors would
bid it between $6,000 and $8,000. Unless you went to the underground
chinese or mexican illegals, those would do it for 3k maybe.

The rates in case you are are interested, *are in the range you
mention..between $60 and $80 an hour, but because of the grossly criminal
workmans comp rates (run up btw by a 30% rate of claims by *city workers)
and overhead costs in the bay area, the work is flat rated at $100 to
$125/hr... that way you can afford to pay the ruthless taxation in the
area. (with increasing number of contractors working side jobs and off the
record, getting a viable rate and paying all the state required fees, is
getting more than tough.. thats why business generally is leaving the state
(for instance the police chief in a dinky town of fairfax claimed stress
disability and retired for life at a young age at $100,000 dissability...
and moved to nevada where he is chief of security at a casino for 100k...
Ive got channel 7 nooz looking into his retirement deal... its rampant in
this state...also normal retirement based on an inflated last years pay
(other workers call in sick, the last year guy gets double income, one
fireman has recently retired at over 100K, along with hundreds of prison
guards...meantime the state goes after legitimate contractors.... running
their costs up dramatically. )

Post by David Meiland
If your contractor can't get it done
economically then something's wrong.

$200 a foot is high but not that high for the bay area... in some cases it
could be low... if you have to trench into the street, the city charges you
$2,000 a day for disrupting traffic... a $6,000 to $8,000 range is
justified in this area (bay area quotes are 30 to 50% higher than in the
rest of the state or US... its the cost of doing business here... if a
person thinks they can get rich here going below those rates, they are in
for a rude awakening).

There are all kinds of issues on hilly ground with a trench too, especially
in commons areas where there is risk of a structural weaking in the soil and
root structures...no problem...just call in a geological engineer who will
also be held liable so he will bill you a few grand, and fill out a few
reams of paper for the city, then delay the job while the city guy trys to
extort a pay off.... and you are home free.

that is if you have not disrupted traffic and incurr a fine there... or
killed a rat with your ditch witch, thats murder you know... the last guy
got hauled into court, found guilty after a long trial and fined. He had
smacked a rat with a shovel. Cruelty to animals.

Then of course the tax and workmans comp people after you big time.... a $60
rate ends up being a $20 net, and that wont pay bridge tolls and parking...
Parking in the city is $10 to $12 and hour in some places (less in
others)... and try this for parking tickets at meters $30 to $35 on some
and up to $50 on others..and they will ticket you each time the meter maid
circles the block...



Phil Scott

Post by David Meiland
Unfortunately, construction is full of change orders. Your situation
sounds extremely familiar.
---
David Meiland
Friday Harbor, WA
http://davidmeiland.com/
**Check the reply address before sending mail

[David Meiland]

Post by Phil Scott
I am contracting in the bay area now... that job would go for $4,000 dead
minimum if you could find anyone at that rate, and most contractors would
bid it between $6,000 and $8,000. Unless you went to the underground
chinese or mexican illegals, those would do it for 3k maybe.
The rates in case you are are interested, *are in the range you
mention..between $60 and $80 an hour, but because of the grossly criminal
workmans comp rates (run up btw by a 30% rate of claims by *city workers)
and overhead costs in the bay area, the work is flat rated at $100 to
$125/hr...

Hey, you should move up here. Comp rates are very reasonable!

Until recently I was PM at a mid sized, high end remodeling company in
the east bay. I don't think I would have needed $6K to get a new 3"
pipe in a 40' trench. We had a daily relationship with a small
excavator/demo company. $100/hr. to bring over the Bobcat with a small
hoe on it. They would probably already be on one of our other jobsites
anyway, so it would be one call. Bust the walk out, dig the trench,
haul the spoils if any, no more than $1000 and that's the worst case.
Electrician, $80/hr. if I call the guy who always says "I'll get my
best man on it right away!" Not more than a day to get the pipe in and
he knows all the city and utility inspectors so that happens snap
snap. Let's say $1000 including pipe, parts, and permit. Carpenter to
form and pour a square of walk, maybe another $1000 if it gets ugly.
My add-on to that is going to be a few hours for my lead guy to deal
with it, a few hours for me, and 25%. We're at maybe $4K and that's if
it turns into a clusterf@&k.

All of this assumes that we're on a hundred-grand-or-bigger job
already, fully mobilized, and just dealing with the incidentals that
we always deal with. Now, if I gotta turn my alarm clock off, get
outta bed, drive over there, drag my crew out of the bar, rent a
special porta potty, block off the street, make people stay late, and
all that--yeah, $6-8K

At my place here I dug a 60' trench, laid in new 1" soft copper, poly
propane line, 2-2-4 for a future shop, and 10/3UF for the well, got it
inspected and filled it back in the next day. That's me and my buddy
with the backhoe and we went into town for lunch too.
---
David Meiland
Friday Harbor, WA
http://davidmeiland.com/

**Check the reply address before sending mail

[Phil Scott]

Post by David Meiland

Post by Phil Scott
I am contracting in the bay area now... that job would go for $4,000 dead
minimum if you could find anyone at that rate, and most contractors would
bid it between $6,000 and $8,000. Unless you went to the underground
chinese or mexican illegals, those would do it for 3k maybe.
The rates in case you are are interested, *are in the range you
mention..between $60 and $80 an hour, but because of the grossly criminal
workmans comp rates (run up btw by a 30% rate of claims by *city workers)
and overhead costs in the bay area, the work is flat rated at $100 to
$125/hr...

Hey, you should move up here. Comp rates are very reasonable!

I should..tell me about it... the fishing is good too.

Post by David Meiland
Until recently I was PM at a mid sized, high end remodeling company in
the east bay. I don't think I would have needed $6K to get a new 3"
pipe in a 40' trench. We had a daily relationship with a small
excavator/demo company. $100/hr. to bring over the Bobcat with a small
hoe on it. They would probably already be on one of our other jobsites
anyway, so it would be one call. Bust the walk out, dig the trench,
haul the spoils if any, no more than $1000 and that's the worst case.
Electrician, $80/hr. if I call the guy who always says "I'll get my
best man on it right away!" Not more than a day to get the pipe in and
he knows all the city and utility inspectors so that happens snap
snap. Let's say $1000 including pipe, parts, and permit.

You sound like you know yer business.. and were connected with the best
and lowest priced in the area. So indeed you could give a low price if you
wanted to, myself though, I would need to make more money for kind of
hassle.

Post by David Meiland
Carpenter to
form and pour a square of walk, maybe another $1000 if it gets ugly.
My add-on to that is going to be a few hours for my lead guy to deal
with it, a few hours for me, and 25%. We're at maybe $4K and that's if

If you worked for a company operating at those margins, that company
would be getting a lot of business...and on very tight margins. Maybe they
could or would stay in business at that rate long term. From my experience
thats a maybe, many working that cheap dont make it. (those working too
high dont make it either however, the happy medium is tough ground to hold)

Post by David Meiland
All of this assumes that we're on a hundred-grand-or-bigger job
already, fully mobilized,

AHHHH thank you... I just KNEW there was an issue here. Id agree then
with 4k.. on the job already, you can do it and at a good profit.
Mobilizing on a cold call...no...and especially for a strange customer.

Post by David Meiland
and just dealing with the incidentals that
we always deal with. Now, if I gotta turn my alarm clock off, get
outta bed, drive over there, drag my crew out of the bar, rent a
special porta potty, block off the street, make people stay late, and
all that--yeah, $6-8K

OK now...we are on the same page.

Post by David Meiland
At my place here I dug a 60' trench, laid in new 1" soft copper, poly
propane line, 2-2-4 for a future shop, and 10/3UF for the well, got it
inspected and filled it back in the next day. That's me and my buddy
with the backhoe and we went into town for lunch too.

Yer a good man Dave...btw for a time I had ONLY 6 customers, all FINE
people.. and guess what..all of them were named Dave. Amazin ain't it?

In bidness though, us fly by night operators have overhead, and other
requirements..so that whole deal is gonna cost em.

You know Dave...I did a KILLER deck on a houseboat the other day...got
attention from all over the docks (south bay)...welded aluminum frame,
polished fittings, large diameter galv steel cabling, out riggers, made in a
fan shape, each board cut on a taper... it was fine.

I got a call a month later, the guy said he had brown water dripping from
his first floor ceiling..(the john was upstairs)....I arrived the next day,
the thing was laying sideways in 20' of water. With the TV antena and one
outrigger from my deck sticking up. I told him to take his time with the
balance.

Its floating again now, dryin out you see how that would be. We put 4 3"
pumps on it, heavy 5/8" cable come alongs on it.. sent divers to plug the
side vent holes and board up the windows... then pumped it out. three days
later it floats again.

You know, I was in yer Seattle Intelligencer news back in 1990 you know... I
had a little to say about what was going on at Hanford (the nuc weapons
site)...Dave..they hate me now. Then we had lawsuits... and they sent
thugs.

Talk to them for me. OK?



Phil Scott

Post by David Meiland
---
David Meiland
Friday Harbor, WA
http://davidmeiland.com/
**Check the reply address before sending mail

[John D]

Why not identify the maximum amps the existing wire is good for. Maybe it's
enough.

[Phil Scott]

Post by John D
Why not identify the maximum amps the existing wire is good for. Maybe it's
enough.

its a diversity issue...the 100 amp wire wont work for a 200 amp load..but
may work for a 200 amp service with diversity of use figured in... thats a
judgment call...in this area is very common for the utility company to leave
the 100 amp feeders in when a new 200A service is installed.... if it was
for a loads that would actually draw the 150A+ then they would install
heavier feeders

[Erik Dillenkofer]

Ask the power company what size line is there now. A 1/0A HM/HD TPX cable will easily handle the 200 amps and can be installed in a
2" conduit.

Post by z
My contractor wanted and still wants to put a 200 amp
power distribution box on my home which is being
remodeled with new rooms and air conditioning.
We called PG&E and got a surprise: they want us
to trench to the local underground box where the home
power line connects to to the neighborhood power line,
and put in a 3" pipe where there is now a 1 1/2" pipe.
Then they want to draw a new line through the pipe,
a line which they say can handle 200 amps.
The old line is (apparently) aluminum.
A guy in the same subdivision about 200 yards
away put on a second story in about 2001. He
upgraded from a 100 amp DB to a 200 amp DB
but did not have to change his power line. I looked
at it and it seemed the original power line for
the subdivision, same as mine.
breaking and replacing a sidewalk concrete segment,
and so on. For PG&E to do it, it would cost
~$200 / ft. The contractor proposes to do it with
a backhoe he would get for cheaper.
All this is not in the contract. In the contract,
upgrading the power line (I think) is marked
"N/A" so there may be some issue (???) with
who picks up the tab for this problem.
I'm just about out of money for taking up the contractor's
earlier suggestion to upgrade our garage roof to get
rid of a cricket by re-aligning the roof line. That
soaked up most of our discretionary budget money.
I'm somewhat concerned that I seem to be forced
to hold the bag for a mistake that someone else,
somewhere, somehow, should have seen coming.
There seems to be some issue with the consistency
with which PG&E is holding us responsible for
line upgrades (or not). There is some speculation
that there might be a new code (although my recollection
is that I was assured by PG&E that this was not the case).
The PG&E guy I spoke with did not mention the case
of my neighbor (who I happened to be aware of).
He just said no one else in my area was upgrading
their lines (at least, not yet), and that everyone's line
was the same (ie 100 amps rated), even 2 story folks
(I am one story). Evidently no one in the subdivision
had air conditioning initially.
Thanks for any advice or pointers.

[Phil Scott]

Post by Erik Dillenkofer
Ask the power company what size line is there now. A 1/0A
HM/HD TPX cable will easily handle the 200 amps and can be
installed in a 2" conduit.

Post by z
My contractor wanted and still wants to put a 200 amp
power distribution box on my home which is being
remodeled with new rooms and air conditioning.
We called PG&E and got a surprise: they want us
to trench to the local underground box where the home
power line connects to to the neighborhood power line,
and put in a 3" pipe where there is now a 1 1/2" pipe.
Then they want to draw a new line through the pipe,
a line which they say can handle 200 amps.
The old line is (apparently) aluminum.
A guy in the same subdivision about 200 yards
away put on a second story in about 2001. He
upgraded from a 100 amp DB to a 200 amp DB
but did not have to change his power line. I looked
at it and it seemed the original power line for
the subdivision, same as mine.
breaking and replacing a sidewalk concrete segment,
and so on. For PG&E to do it, it would cost
~$200 / ft. The contractor proposes to do it with
a backhoe he would get for cheaper.
All this is not in the contract. In the contract,
upgrading the power line (I think) is marked
"N/A" so there may be some issue (???) with
who picks up the tab for this problem.
I'm just about out of money for taking up the contractor's
earlier suggestion to upgrade our garage roof to get
rid of a cricket by re-aligning the roof line. That
soaked up most of our discretionary budget money.
I'm somewhat concerned that I seem to be forced
to hold the bag for a mistake that someone else,
somewhere, somehow, should have seen coming.

that isnt it... its up to the discretion of the local
electric utility staff af the time if they want you to upgrade
your connection to the utility and that is virtually always at
the home owners cost... what was good 40 years ago, is not
good today ..its not an error...its progress and homes using
more electricity. The fact that your current feed is aluminum
probably drove the decision to upgrade the service along with
the size of your house.

You could install a 200 amp service on the 100 amp line though
by putting whatever size main breaker the utility will allow
in the box..maybe 150 amps or so... that way you get the extra
room for branch circuits... you will only have a problem of
the total load at any given time exceeds the main breaker size
you installed. Check with your local officials on that
option.

Generally you will not be exceeding the 100 amp draw.,,,
todays high efficiency HVAC unit draws 15 amps, lights and an
electric oven and electric drier on all at once could come
close to 100 amps.... no need to run them all at once and its
not a disaster if the main breaker trips... my guess maybe
once every 5 years....you could opt for a gas oven or drier
and avoid the upgrade service issue.


Phil Scott

Post by Erik Dillenkofer

Post by z
There seems to be some issue with the consistency
with which PG&E is holding us responsible for
line upgrades (or not). There is some speculation
that there might be a new code (although my recollection
is that I was assured by PG&E that this was not the case).
The PG&E guy I spoke with did not mention the case
of my neighbor (who I happened to be aware of).
He just said no one else in my area was upgrading
their lines (at least, not yet), and that everyone's line
was the same (ie 100 amps rated), even 2 story folks
(I am one story). Evidently no one in the subdivision
had air conditioning initially.
Thanks for any advice or pointers.

[Dan Deckert]

The whole upgrade issue will be determined by L&I or whomever is responsible
for issuing/inspecting/signing off electrical permits in yer neck of the
woods. Piss on PG&E, they don't call the shots. (Except for power to the
transformer/pole) Answers are generally 99.9% free from your local issuing
authority. USA anyway. There are new codes............& I believe since
2001.

Dan

Post by Erik Dillenkofer
Ask the power company what size line is there now. A 1/0A HM/HD TPX cable

will easily handle the 200 amps and can be installed in a

Post by Erik Dillenkofer
2" conduit.

Post by z
My contractor wanted and still wants to put a 200 amp
power distribution box on my home which is being
remodeled with new rooms and air conditioning.
We called PG&E and got a surprise: they want us
to trench to the local underground box where the home
power line connects to to the neighborhood power line,
and put in a 3" pipe where there is now a 1 1/2" pipe.
Then they want to draw a new line through the pipe,
a line which they say can handle 200 amps.
The old line is (apparently) aluminum.
A guy in the same subdivision about 200 yards
away put on a second story in about 2001. He
upgraded from a 100 amp DB to a 200 amp DB
but did not have to change his power line. I looked
at it and it seemed the original power line for
the subdivision, same as mine.
breaking and replacing a sidewalk concrete segment,
and so on. For PG&E to do it, it would cost
~$200 / ft. The contractor proposes to do it with
a backhoe he would get for cheaper.
All this is not in the contract. In the contract,
upgrading the power line (I think) is marked
"N/A" so there may be some issue (???) with
who picks up the tab for this problem.
I'm just about out of money for taking up the contractor's
earlier suggestion to upgrade our garage roof to get
rid of a cricket by re-aligning the roof line. That
soaked up most of our discretionary budget money.
I'm somewhat concerned that I seem to be forced
to hold the bag for a mistake that someone else,
somewhere, somehow, should have seen coming.
There seems to be some issue with the consistency
with which PG&E is holding us responsible for
line upgrades (or not). There is some speculation
that there might be a new code (although my recollection
is that I was assured by PG&E that this was not the case).
The PG&E guy I spoke with did not mention the case
of my neighbor (who I happened to be aware of).
He just said no one else in my area was upgrading
their lines (at least, not yet), and that everyone's line
was the same (ie 100 amps rated), even 2 story folks
(I am one story). Evidently no one in the subdivision
had air conditioning initially.
Thanks for any advice or pointers.

[Erik Dillenkofer]

If the service is owned by the customer, then it falls under the NEC (National Electric Code) and is under the jurisdiction of the
local inspecting authorities. If it's owned by the utility, then it falls under the NESC (National Electric Safety Code) and is
under the jurisdiction of the utility - and in that case they would call the shots.

Post by Dan Deckert
The whole upgrade issue will be determined by L&I or whomever is responsible
for issuing/inspecting/signing off electrical permits in yer neck of the
woods. Piss on PG&E, they don't call the shots. (Except for power to the
transformer/pole) Answers are generally 99.9% free from your local issuing
authority. USA anyway. There are new codes............& I believe since
2001.
Dan

Post by Erik Dillenkofer
Ask the power company what size line is there now. A 1/0A HM/HD TPX cable

will easily handle the 200 amps and can be installed in a

Post by Erik Dillenkofer
2" conduit.

Post by z
My contractor wanted and still wants to put a 200 amp
power distribution box on my home which is being
remodeled with new rooms and air conditioning.
We called PG&E and got a surprise: they want us
to trench to the local underground box where the home
power line connects to to the neighborhood power line,
and put in a 3" pipe where there is now a 1 1/2" pipe.
Then they want to draw a new line through the pipe,
a line which they say can handle 200 amps.
The old line is (apparently) aluminum.
A guy in the same subdivision about 200 yards
away put on a second story in about 2001. He
upgraded from a 100 amp DB to a 200 amp DB
but did not have to change his power line. I looked
at it and it seemed the original power line for
the subdivision, same as mine.
breaking and replacing a sidewalk concrete segment,
and so on. For PG&E to do it, it would cost
~$200 / ft. The contractor proposes to do it with
a backhoe he would get for cheaper.
All this is not in the contract. In the contract,
upgrading the power line (I think) is marked
"N/A" so there may be some issue (???) with
who picks up the tab for this problem.
I'm just about out of money for taking up the contractor's
earlier suggestion to upgrade our garage roof to get
rid of a cricket by re-aligning the roof line. That
soaked up most of our discretionary budget money.
I'm somewhat concerned that I seem to be forced
to hold the bag for a mistake that someone else,
somewhere, somehow, should have seen coming.
There seems to be some issue with the consistency
with which PG&E is holding us responsible for
line upgrades (or not). There is some speculation
that there might be a new code (although my recollection
is that I was assured by PG&E that this was not the case).
The PG&E guy I spoke with did not mention the case
of my neighbor (who I happened to be aware of).
He just said no one else in my area was upgrading
their lines (at least, not yet), and that everyone's line
was the same (ie 100 amps rated), even 2 story folks
(I am one story). Evidently no one in the subdivision
had air conditioning initially.
Thanks for any advice or pointers.

[Dan Deckert]

Post by Erik Dillenkofer
If the service is owned by the customer, then it falls under the NEC

(National Electric Code) and is under the jurisdiction of the

Post by Erik Dillenkofer
local inspecting authorities. If it's owned by the utility, then it falls

under the NESC (National Electric Safety Code) and is

Post by Erik Dillenkofer
under the jurisdiction of the utility - and in that case they would call the shots.

I stand corrected...........Dan

Post by Erik Dillenkofer

Post by Dan Deckert
The whole upgrade issue will be determined by L&I or whomever is responsible
for issuing/inspecting/signing off electrical permits in yer neck of the
woods. Piss on PG&E, they don't call the shots. (Except for power to the
transformer/pole) Answers are generally 99.9% free from your local issuing
authority. USA anyway. There are new codes............& I believe since
2001.
Dan

Post by Erik Dillenkofer
Ask the power company what size line is there now. A 1/0A HM/HD TPX cable

will easily handle the 200 amps and can be installed in a

Post by Erik Dillenkofer
2" conduit.

Post by z
My contractor wanted and still wants to put a 200 amp
power distribution box on my home which is being
remodeled with new rooms and air conditioning.
We called PG&E and got a surprise: they want us
to trench to the local underground box where the home
power line connects to to the neighborhood power line,
and put in a 3" pipe where there is now a 1 1/2" pipe.
Then they want to draw a new line through the pipe,
a line which they say can handle 200 amps.
The old line is (apparently) aluminum.
A guy in the same subdivision about 200 yards
away put on a second story in about 2001. He
upgraded from a 100 amp DB to a 200 amp DB
but did not have to change his power line. I looked
at it and it seemed the original power line for
the subdivision, same as mine.
breaking and replacing a sidewalk concrete segment,
and so on. For PG&E to do it, it would cost
~$200 / ft. The contractor proposes to do it with
a backhoe he would get for cheaper.
All this is not in the contract. In the contract,
upgrading the power line (I think) is marked
"N/A" so there may be some issue (???) with
who picks up the tab for this problem.
I'm just about out of money for taking up the contractor's
earlier suggestion to upgrade our garage roof to get
rid of a cricket by re-aligning the roof line. That
soaked up most of our discretionary budget money.
I'm somewhat concerned that I seem to be forced
to hold the bag for a mistake that someone else,
somewhere, somehow, should have seen coming.
There seems to be some issue with the consistency
with which PG&E is holding us responsible for
line upgrades (or not). There is some speculation
that there might be a new code (although my recollection
is that I was assured by PG&E that this was not the case).
The PG&E guy I spoke with did not mention the case
of my neighbor (who I happened to be aware of).
He just said no one else in my area was upgrading
their lines (at least, not yet), and that everyone's line
was the same (ie 100 amps rated), even 2 story folks
(I am one story). Evidently no one in the subdivision
had air conditioning initially.
Thanks for any advice or pointers.